The kitchen, bedroom and bathroom industry is full of companies that are always confusing in their nomenclature and ownership. For example, Grohe and Hansgrohe - there's a family dispute that would make Jeremy Kyle rub his hands with glee. Terence Conran is currently in dispute with the company that owns the Conran Design Group over the use of his own name. And as for Nobia and Nobilia, don't get me started.

So while the names are very different, any meeting with kitchen and bathroom distributor Mark Two has to start with sorting out the relationship between it and the PJH Group. Both companies were founded by Peter Hopkinson, fair enough, and while PJH still uses his name (and his initials), his sons now run Mark Two. In fact, the real story is that Peter Hopkinson, who sadly passed away last year, sold PJH well over 20 years ago and, after three years out of the industry, decided to come back to support his son Nick when he started his own company Mark Two.
So now Nick and brother Chris are joint mds of a company that turns over more than £60m a year serving a nationwide group of both independent and multiple customers.

Mark Two has recently restructured to put more effort into the independent retailer. A long period of perhaps over reliance on big multiples like MFI took the company's eye of its historic retail base so the appointment of Paul Jenkinson as a figurehead for the Independent Division was a visible gesture that things were about to change.
Since he started there have been a lot of personnel changes, always the first sign of a new broom, as well as increased emphasis on face to face meetings, product training and overall customer service. There is also a drive in its kitchen brand, Lakes, and bathroom brand, Balterley, to push them firmly into the middle market and keep them up to pace with industry trends.

But is it all working...?

Who is your nearest rival in terms of market share?

It's probably PJH actually, they have a similar business model, they serve independents and they have a couple of larger customers, the only difference is their on site work, they serve appliances into the house builder market and that's a sizeable chunk of their business.
In terms of market share, we're probably number two or number three in the UK and in terms of home delivery capacity we're probably number one.

You were brought in solely to look after Mark Two's independent retail customers, why is so important?

It's the heartland of the business, it's where it started out and it's where I've been focused for the last two and a half years. It's an increasingly significant proportion of the business again now - about 25% - and the swing has been quite radical so it's now a very important part of the business. It was significantly lower than that a few years ago I'm sorry to report but it's increasing as our reliance on the sheds reduces.

More business with independent retailers must mean offering better product doesn't it?

Absolutely, our bathroom offering is a good example of that. When we looked at bathrooms a couple of years ago, the range needed updating and we've done a lot of work on it. A lot of independents are moving upmarket in design and quality and we're trying to match that, so we've spent a lot of time and money creating our own brochures, for example, rather than just relying on manufacturers' own.

Kitchens has mirrored that, our own brand of Lakes started out as a 15mm offering with six or seven doors - it was an entry level product. But 75% of what we sell now is 18mm and 80% of that is soft close and there's 20 odd doors in the range, it's now firmly in the heart of mid-market.

There aren't many at the bottom end now fighting over that sector, it's a hard business to make money out of. We want to be there for our customers when it comes to bathrooms or kitchens so we can come to you with a great value product, but do we want to be in that market? No. Do we see it as a way of capturing your attention and proving we can do something good? Yes. Our best selling bathroom products are now our most expensive and it's pretty similar in kitchens.

That's a reflection of overall changes in the distribution market, you're almost a supplier in your own right.

You're directly competing with manufacturers, totally. We have our own brands in that way, and if you get behind the scenes of most companies who call themselves manufacturers, they're buying in product in the same way distributors have always done. We come up with design suggestion ourselves and take them to the manufacturers.

You've had a lot of direct contact with customers, does that input affect your decisions?

We did a forum with our kitchen customers quite recently actually. There was a whole session where we asked them to talk to us about, say, carcases, doors, and what we should be thinking about appliances. We have our own concerns about the internet and branding, but we want them to talk to us as independent retailers about what they want. You can't act on everything, and some people come up with ideas that can never happen, but in an afternoon you can find some real gems. That's been working real well and it definitely guides our decisions.

Are independents moving forward in the way they do business?

I could go and see ten customers tomorrow and everyone would be different, some have really taken on technology and love it. Others don't have a fax. It's the same in showrooms, some are absolutely immaculate and have a real attention to detail, and then there are others where you think it needs some real work. It is frustrating, but are they moving forward? Generally yes. Are they moving quickly? Generally no. But does it differ customer by customer? Absolutely.

I'm wowed by the sophistication of a lot of retailers but there are plenty that do plod along with fax machines and dirty showrooms - too many of the middle market are like that. The top end showrooms are very crisp because they're selling £50,000 projects. If you're moving in the £5,000 to £10,000 bracket a lot aren't but you have to be careful because they're family businesses and a lot of them do very well.